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pron 6 hours ago [-]
Never mind the policy, why do tech CEOs have to sound like frat boys?
smt88 6 hours ago [-]
Because they’re all fraternity rejects who still want college boys to think they’re cool
PaulDavisThe1st 5 hours ago [-]
That might have been an excuse in 1992. It's not an excuse in 2026. The geeks won. We are the cool guys (or were, until the fucking geek CEOs went insane).
5 hours ago [-]
ranger_danger 5 hours ago [-]
> The geeks won.
Damn, my check must've gotten lost in the mail.
esseph 5 hours ago [-]
The geeks won, and then were quickly replaced.
cyanydeez 5 hours ago [-]
"We are the guys who get to be future rapists, ego maniacs, and provide once in for all, it's not personality, just money and fortune that makes business shit"
rexpop 6 hours ago [-]
> “That’s bullshit and loser thinking. Of course it’s possible to be fast and secure,” Yen wrote in the channel at the end of August.
What a jerk. I agree that security doesn't have to be given time—like all software, implementation takes the time it takes.
But he doesn't have to be such an asshole about it. In my book, there's nothing more representative of "loser thinking" than casting petulant aspersions like "loser thinking."
sublinear 2 hours ago [-]
I don't believe there's more extreme loser thinking than betting it all on AI without a clear roadmap. Going nowhere fast like their ass is on fire.
seattle_spring 6 hours ago [-]
Dunno, but it's a big reason why I hated living in SF, hate being lumped in with "tech bros", and absolutely cannot stand people who turn their entire personality into being "all in on AI".
incompatible 5 hours ago [-]
I assume it's just the "get rich quick" mentality, and AI is where it's at for that.
28304283409234 6 hours ago [-]
Damn I thought these were the good guys.
phyzome 5 hours ago [-]
There have been a number of signs over the past few years that they are very much not the good guys.
idle_zealot 5 hours ago [-]
Can you reference some? I recall never trusting Proton, but I never had a reason why, just gut feeling. This stuff is vindicating, but I'm curious if I actually had a reason to feel the way I did or was right by accident. I don't have a great track record; I trusted Bitwarden and regret it, and the Mullvad situation is very disappointing (though not really related to the quality of the tech).
phyzome 4 hours ago [-]
Someone in the comments on a previous 404 article listed a few things -- nothing necessarily "cancellable" in its own right, but drawing a pattern:
- Praising the Republican Party and endorsing a Trump appointee.
- Andy choosing a username with 88 in it (a common Nazi dogwhistle) but then claiming it had a different meaning.
- Sponsoring a far-right French YouTuber and claiming they had no idea.
Again, nothing hard and fast. But it meant I was not at all surprised to find out how fucked up the company is on the inside.
NewJazz 16 minutes ago [-]
The 88 thing is probably just because he's chinese.
And don't they sponsor like a crap ton of youtubers?
cyanydeez 5 hours ago [-]
yeah, it's the "getting rich" part that...tips you off.
steve_adams_86 5 hours ago [-]
This doesn't make them bad guys, though.
edit: stating this based off of the linked post, but will read the article linked in the post as well.
edit edit: Okay, yeah. This seems like an awful place to work.
meibo 5 hours ago [-]
Being cruel to your employees qualifies, regardless whether they care about the product, IMO. And it seems like those employees did care. Words matter and shape the environment people work in.
steve_adams_86 4 hours ago [-]
I wasn't aware of cruelty; just that they are opting to use AI. The tracking of AI produced code is tough; I have that at my org too, but it's more so to get a sense for who's using it, so we can find out why, help them use it better, etc.
I also only read the initial post and not the entire 404 article. I suppose if I could edit my comment and have it maintain some posterity, I'd say something like "going all-in on AI doesn't make you evil", but I concede that these guys could certainly be assholes if there's more to it (I'll read the nested article).
lifeisloving 5 hours ago [-]
There's a lot of people on this site who think successful tech execs and founders should be able to do whatever they want to anyone and their communities. They all think they'll become one soon enough, so they're protecting their imaginary class interests.
They're sheep being herded by tech billionaires, who've gotten them to think they're pets and that they definately won't slaughter the second they're hungry.
timmytokyo 4 hours ago [-]
They're more like veal calves.
steve_adams_86 4 hours ago [-]
My comment wasn't meant to imply anything of the sort. I think you can adopt AI aggressively without being a total dickhead, more or less. Doing it at direct expense to others' well-being is clearly a problem. I'll read the nested article to see how wrong I am, but the initial post that's linked didn't seem to indicate Proton have gone to the dark side. I'd need more evidence to judge them like that.
whoanoway 5 hours ago [-]
[dead]
CamperBob2 5 hours ago [-]
Failure to take advantage of available tools does not suggest whether you are a good guy or a bad guy, just whether you are a competent guy or an incompetent guy.
selcuka 5 hours ago [-]
Setting up a snitch network to "ruthlessly smash everything that stands in the way" suggests that you are a bad guy.
ehnto 4 hours ago [-]
Tools have no morality but they do have effects and outcomes. That's where we make our judgement call on whether you're good or bad for using them.
lifeisloving 5 hours ago [-]
Whats an example of a company, that existed pre-AI that has so far failed to take advantage of AI and has fallen behind?
I see a ton of examples of companies overusing AI and destroying their brand/image and products, but not many who abstained and are hurting. Using AI does not give you automatic wins, and using it solely because its available does not make you competent.
ehnto 1 hours ago [-]
Its going to be wildly distributed and varied so hard to spot, but look for companies where the main output was commodity B2B assets and you can see a real impact. Marketing copy, images, graphic design in the low and mid tiers. Real businesses supplied that stuff and even adopting AI wouldn't help, since their customers could just do it in house now.
There's heaps of companies between small and conglomerate and the middle area is where the commodity asset companies lived. Generating low stakes copy, art, apps and websites for small companies.
lifeisloving 1 hours ago [-]
Okay I'll conceed there, but I dont think my rule applies to businesses that were already slop factories pre-ai.
Great. I have a lifetime account that I purchased a decade ago and now I'm going to have to find something else. Thanks guys, thanks for ruining everything.
mshish 5 hours ago [-]
Article seems somewhat one sided to me. The style of the CEO doesn't sound good, but there's no discussion of specific tooling, harnesses, and other automation they have in place. Reading the letter posted, it sounds like they've got more in place than the article implies but people have been resisting adopting.
defgeneric 4 hours ago [-]
Yeah this sounds a lot to me like blowback from current or former employees. There's no specific evidence yet of bad security practices, but the mere suggestion of it is a problem for a company whose image is centered on privacy. It's a knife well-aimed by someone who knew where to aim it.
timmytokyo 4 hours ago [-]
Is it good security practice to replace engineers with product managers?
"This will be the last year that we hire engineers, and starting next year we hire what we used to call product managers, to build things with AI."
By the way, this is where the industry would like to go. Pay attention, people.
ehnto 1 hours ago [-]
Why not have the engineers, or "implementors", known for systems thinking, build things with AI? A team of product managers building things is like saying I want my factory floor manager on the tools, running the machines. The evolution of that role just lands you at a team of implementors again, who still need a leader. You already have that.
In a sense, you're demoting your managers to implementors, and getting rid of their leadership role altogether. Simultaneously getting rid of your prior engineers and all the domain and tribal knowledge they had built up.
defgeneric 2 hours ago [-]
It seems to me an intentionally provocative formulation, and maybe a symptom of an ongoing internal shake-up. But think about it--is he really saying anything so different compared to what some of our best well-known engineers like antirez have been saying?
I think we all know the game has changed. The question would be whether the CEO is handling that effectively. On that score I don't think he is. It sounds like a slow-moving mutiny is going on, and to have it blow up in the press means you've already failed.
bigstrat2003 1 hours ago [-]
> I think we all know the game has changed.
We do not all know anything of the sort. From my perspective, the game hasn't changed at all, and it's just a bunch of people hyping up a bubble who think it has.
4 hours ago [-]
phyzome 4 hours ago [-]
Posting the CEO's own words seems pretty fair to the CEO.
willio58 5 hours ago [-]
There’s going all in on AI adoption, then there’s what proton has done.
This is disgusting, full stop. Destroying any sense of trust in your company by allowing people to rat on others is going to bite them in the ass.
And all for AI, which ultimately is a tool that the largest portion of people already have adopted and those that haven’t often understand it’s the way forward anyway. Like instead of letting your people do this organically, maintaining trust in their org, you poison it instead. And for what? A few extra dollars in the bank? The greed is gross.
Not to mention the loss of customers/potential customers. I always thought proton was one of the good companies. That’s out the window with this news.
senorrib 3 hours ago [-]
Time to find a new home for my email address.
encrypted_bird 1 hours ago [-]
You know any decent alternative? I have a Tuta address, but sometimes emails don't arrive.
californical 14 minutes ago [-]
I’ve been using Fastmail for years now. Easy to use, reliable, and consistent. No major extra features but that’s exactly what I want for an email provider! I see it recommended here sometimes, so I’m happy to be that guy today
6 hours ago [-]
SamDc73 5 hours ago [-]
I wish they can offer LLMs though an API with some good privacy (not a UI) since i can't come across any
skinfaxi 6 hours ago [-]
Is it me or has Proton been getting more media coverage than usual very recently?
jmspring 6 hours ago [-]
It seems like it has. My father who is provacy conscious but not really one to seek specific things out started talking about / investigating proton a couple of weeks ago. He is almost 80.
sublinear 2 hours ago [-]
Those are the media outlets to cut out of your life. They're just proxies for PR firms.
anonymous908213 6 hours ago [-]
FFS. ProtonVPN is borderline irreplaceable as one of the three or so VPNs that you don't have to trust because they've been tested in court not to have VPN logs. Losing one of them hurts.
aesthesia 5 hours ago [-]
Does this change your estimation of whether they will keep logs?
bunderbunder 5 hours ago [-]
Based on my own usage, one of the things that AI continues to be really, really shit at is data governance. And this is a place where a “move fast at all costs” attitude simply will not do. It is just so very easy to accidentally start leaking data in a way that undermines privacy safeguards.
andrewinardeer 5 hours ago [-]
This issue is not unique to Proton. Tech companies are going either going "a fair bit" to "all" in on AI. Like Proton.
virtualcharles 5 hours ago [-]
Who are the others? Mullvad I assume, although they had their own brush with bullshit not too long ago.
SamDc73 5 hours ago [-]
> although they had their own brush with bullshit not too long ago.
https://www.tuta.com/
Is the only other major player I am aware of— although they have a significantly smaller product lineup than Proton, and aren’t as viable an alternative to Google for those who want a fully integrated suite.
Tuta does Mail and Calendar fairly well, cant speak to their drive product.
The other option is self hosting.
selcuka 5 hours ago [-]
> aren’t as viable an alternative to Google for those who want a fully integrated suite
Don't worry, they can vibe code the rest in no time. /s
phyzome 4 hours ago [-]
For the kind of end-to-end encrypted support they advertise? Tuta is the only one I know of.
Email more broadly? I can heartily recommend Fastmail.
I don't really send anything sensitive over email if I can help it. Signal is a much better choice.
The CEO sounds like .. a loser. :) I'm kidding! He sounds very smart!
If the company isn't going to hit revenue targets they might actually need to fire people and this can be a good way to provide cover that devs aren't meeting requirements so they can be fired with cause.
A past company CEO sounded very similar to this internally before they fired 30% of the staff because they didn't have enough money.
My current vibe reading on CEOs who think every job can be done with AI today is the athlete who starts celebrating before crossing the finish line, to be passed bysomeone who takes the win. My guys, it's not that good yet!
slopinthebag 6 hours ago [-]
who cares? i'm not so sure the current quality of software can get much lower and responsible use of ai could have big upside.
r00t- 5 hours ago [-]
And? What's the issue?
lofties 5 hours ago [-]
The issue is that, per the article, "Andy Yen, the CEO of Proton, had a message for an employee in the company’s security Slack channel who urged the company to at least take a few days to pentest newly written code before pushing it live. “That’s bullshit and loser thinking. Of course it’s possible to be fast and secure,”
I think anyone who has been working around in IT long enough, knows that it is in fact very, very hard to be fast and secure. Even with AI.
ls612 6 hours ago [-]
After everything in the past six months do we really think that humans are better than coding agents at writing secure code?! This announcement honestly makes me more confident not less in their products.
rationalist 5 hours ago [-]
Commonly attributed to Upton Sinclair:
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”
Just like other advances in technology have replaced jobs, AI will replace jobs.
I'm sure the elevator opperators lamented push-button controls that anyone could just press too.
It sucks, but I imagine most programmers are smart enough to be able to pivot careers or how they do their jobs.
ls612 5 hours ago [-]
The lump of labor fallacy is a fallacy not real. Phrased another way, demand for software is more or less infinite so if coding agents make everyone a 10x engineer eventually we will easily find use for 10x more software.
abejfehr 3 hours ago [-]
How? Isn’t there a finite number of people and a finite amount of time to interact with software?
ls612 3 hours ago [-]
You underestimate just how much software humans can interact with in any given second. ;)
upboundspiral 27 minutes ago [-]
Ah, so this one of the reasons why in 2026 every single app / software suite / et al takes 2+ seconds to load, is slow and buggy, and overall a pain to use.
Since software is in some ways information + machine a near infinite amount can be created. I'm not sure I want to live in that world.
abejfehr 3 hours ago [-]
Sure, but that’s not infinite. It’s always a zero sum game: if someone is playing my game then they're not playing yours (even if someone else might be)
rationalist 5 hours ago [-]
> demand for software is more or less infinite so if coding agents make everyone a 10x engineer eventually we will easily find use for 10x more software.
That will probably be true.
defgeneric 5 hours ago [-]
Fully expecting this will get me a torrent of downvotes here, but...
I'm not sure he's wrong. I'm speculating here but I can imagine the kind of developers Proton attracts--likely people who care a lot about the code and who care about the craft. That's fine, but when you're running a company in this environment, and that's what things look like internally, you do have to be a little brutal to shake people out of old ways. A manifesto titled "Your old job is gone" may actually be warranted.
It sounds a lot like there are people internally who are still fighting the shift, and they've taken to leaking things that hurt the company's security image. Part of the CEO's job, if he's going to push hard in the direction he's decided on, is to fire those people who will undermine it before they do. That this has all now backfired is entirely on him. Maybe he thought he was "motivating" people by calling them losers, or shaking them out of an outmoded way of thinking about what we do, but none of that matters when you have employees attacking your main selling point and the core image of the company in public.
He's not wrong that he needs to move fast, or that processes need to change, or that the job has changed, but his execution isn't so great.
He'll probably survive just fine though.
phyzome 4 hours ago [-]
You can absolutely shake people out of their ways without being a raging asshole.
defgeneric 2 hours ago [-]
That's true!
bigstrat2003 1 hours ago [-]
Also, they don't need shaking out of their ways. Aren't the AI bros always trying to tell us to evaluate the results, not the tool used to produce them? That argument cuts both ways. The Proton engineers are demonstrably doing a good job at building the software, so they shouldn't be punished if they believe LLMs aren't the right tool for the job.
TutleCpt 6 hours ago [-]
Do we really need humans writing code anymore though? Another year of development and AI is just going to be superior to a human writing code. It's already about 90% there.
blindhippo 6 hours ago [-]
Humans still write the code, we just do it using AI tools.
If we abdicate and let all software development and operations occur through the use of fully autonomous agents, someone is still ultimately responsible for the agents work/screw-ups. Thus, there is still a human writing code, from an ownership perspective. We all know it won't be the capital/manager class holding the stick there.
krapp 6 hours ago [-]
>If we abdicate and let all software development and operations occur through the use of fully autonomous agents, someone is still ultimately responsible for the agents work/screw-ups. Thus, there is still a human writing code, from an ownership perspective.
That isn't what "writing code" means. The responsibility is for using the AI, or being negligent in doing so, but the AI is obviously writing the code. That's the entire point of it.
smsm42 5 hours ago [-]
Are compilers writing code? I mean, people hadn't been producing anything that a CPU is actually executing (excepting some very rare special cases) for decades now. So we never wrote code to begin with...
krapp 5 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
phyzome 5 hours ago [-]
...no? That's just called being a crumple zone.
xaksnTMu2 6 hours ago [-]
Prototype self-driving cars where able to handle 90% of driving around 1990. Sometimes it is very hard to go from something that works very often to something that works always.
smsm42 5 hours ago [-]
Depends on what do you mean by "writing code". Once, writing code meant punching holes in pieces of paper and feeding that into a machine. Then the technology changed. Writing code became entering cryptic numbers into the machine. Then the technology changed. Writing code became typing words and punctuation that have some passing connection to English but otherwise meaningless to a non-professional. Then the technology changed. Writing code became much more like writing text but still not resembling any actual text. Then the technology changed... It will change again. It still won't magically produce something sensible out of nothing.
bigstrat2003 1 hours ago [-]
> Do we really need humans writing code anymore though?
Yes, we do.
> Another year of development and AI is just going to be superior to a human writing code.
I've been hearing that for multiple years now. Why is it true this time when it wasn't in the past?
28304283409234 6 hours ago [-]
Regardless of who or what writes it, it needs to be tested.
InsideOutSanta 6 hours ago [-]
I don't even care about that. Sure, use LLMs to write code. But the way Andy talks to his employees and treats them is so disrespectful, I find it actually despicable.
Unfortunately, it's not super easy for me to migrate away from Proton, but it's the next personal tech project I'll undertake.
hoppp 6 hours ago [-]
Companies need somebody to yell at when hackers get in.
dofm 5 hours ago [-]
Ahh yes, the final ten percent is always easy to predict like this.
platevoltage 6 hours ago [-]
This bubble can't pop soon enough.
YmFzZTY0ZGFkZHk 5 hours ago [-]
You are right. Let's just hand the keys to everything to the AI companies. They've proven to be trustworthy and ethical. I trust them so much, I'm just going to stop thinking and say yes.
Damn, my check must've gotten lost in the mail.
What a jerk. I agree that security doesn't have to be given time—like all software, implementation takes the time it takes.
But he doesn't have to be such an asshole about it. In my book, there's nothing more representative of "loser thinking" than casting petulant aspersions like "loser thinking."
https://www.404media.co/proton-to-re-interview-staff-about-a...
- Praising the Republican Party and endorsing a Trump appointee.
- Andy choosing a username with 88 in it (a common Nazi dogwhistle) but then claiming it had a different meaning.
- Sponsoring a far-right French YouTuber and claiming they had no idea.
Again, nothing hard and fast. But it meant I was not at all surprised to find out how fucked up the company is on the inside.
And don't they sponsor like a crap ton of youtubers?
edit: stating this based off of the linked post, but will read the article linked in the post as well.
edit edit: Okay, yeah. This seems like an awful place to work.
I also only read the initial post and not the entire 404 article. I suppose if I could edit my comment and have it maintain some posterity, I'd say something like "going all-in on AI doesn't make you evil", but I concede that these guys could certainly be assholes if there's more to it (I'll read the nested article).
They're sheep being herded by tech billionaires, who've gotten them to think they're pets and that they definately won't slaughter the second they're hungry.
I see a ton of examples of companies overusing AI and destroying their brand/image and products, but not many who abstained and are hurting. Using AI does not give you automatic wins, and using it solely because its available does not make you competent.
There's heaps of companies between small and conglomerate and the middle area is where the commodity asset companies lived. Generating low stakes copy, art, apps and websites for small companies.
"This will be the last year that we hire engineers, and starting next year we hire what we used to call product managers, to build things with AI."
By the way, this is where the industry would like to go. Pay attention, people.
In a sense, you're demoting your managers to implementors, and getting rid of their leadership role altogether. Simultaneously getting rid of your prior engineers and all the domain and tribal knowledge they had built up.
I think we all know the game has changed. The question would be whether the CEO is handling that effectively. On that score I don't think he is. It sounds like a slow-moving mutiny is going on, and to have it blow up in the press means you've already failed.
We do not all know anything of the sort. From my perspective, the game hasn't changed at all, and it's just a bunch of people hyping up a bubble who think it has.
This is disgusting, full stop. Destroying any sense of trust in your company by allowing people to rat on others is going to bite them in the ass.
And all for AI, which ultimately is a tool that the largest portion of people already have adopted and those that haven’t often understand it’s the way forward anyway. Like instead of letting your people do this organically, maintaining trust in their org, you poison it instead. And for what? A few extra dollars in the bank? The greed is gross.
Not to mention the loss of customers/potential customers. I always thought proton was one of the good companies. That’s out the window with this news.
can you elaborate?
Any good alternatives?
The other option is self hosting.
Don't worry, they can vibe code the rest in no time. /s
Email more broadly? I can heartily recommend Fastmail.
I don't really send anything sensitive over email if I can help it. Signal is a much better choice.
If the company isn't going to hit revenue targets they might actually need to fire people and this can be a good way to provide cover that devs aren't meeting requirements so they can be fired with cause.
A past company CEO sounded very similar to this internally before they fired 30% of the staff because they didn't have enough money.
My current vibe reading on CEOs who think every job can be done with AI today is the athlete who starts celebrating before crossing the finish line, to be passed bysomeone who takes the win. My guys, it's not that good yet!
I think anyone who has been working around in IT long enough, knows that it is in fact very, very hard to be fast and secure. Even with AI.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.”
Just like other advances in technology have replaced jobs, AI will replace jobs.
I'm sure the elevator opperators lamented push-button controls that anyone could just press too.
It sucks, but I imagine most programmers are smart enough to be able to pivot careers or how they do their jobs.
Since software is in some ways information + machine a near infinite amount can be created. I'm not sure I want to live in that world.
That will probably be true.
I'm not sure he's wrong. I'm speculating here but I can imagine the kind of developers Proton attracts--likely people who care a lot about the code and who care about the craft. That's fine, but when you're running a company in this environment, and that's what things look like internally, you do have to be a little brutal to shake people out of old ways. A manifesto titled "Your old job is gone" may actually be warranted.
It sounds a lot like there are people internally who are still fighting the shift, and they've taken to leaking things that hurt the company's security image. Part of the CEO's job, if he's going to push hard in the direction he's decided on, is to fire those people who will undermine it before they do. That this has all now backfired is entirely on him. Maybe he thought he was "motivating" people by calling them losers, or shaking them out of an outmoded way of thinking about what we do, but none of that matters when you have employees attacking your main selling point and the core image of the company in public.
He's not wrong that he needs to move fast, or that processes need to change, or that the job has changed, but his execution isn't so great.
He'll probably survive just fine though.
If we abdicate and let all software development and operations occur through the use of fully autonomous agents, someone is still ultimately responsible for the agents work/screw-ups. Thus, there is still a human writing code, from an ownership perspective. We all know it won't be the capital/manager class holding the stick there.
That isn't what "writing code" means. The responsibility is for using the AI, or being negligent in doing so, but the AI is obviously writing the code. That's the entire point of it.
Yes, we do.
> Another year of development and AI is just going to be superior to a human writing code.
I've been hearing that for multiple years now. Why is it true this time when it wasn't in the past?
Unfortunately, it's not super easy for me to migrate away from Proton, but it's the next personal tech project I'll undertake.
/s